Many business owners think they just need to make more sales to grow their business but this is a myth……It is one way, but knowing the critical numbers in your business and taking action to make improvements, profits can increase without more sales or more work.
Dylis: Hi there this is Dylis Guyan and welcome to the Inspired Selling Podcast and once again I have another fabulous guest for you, Mike Foster. I just want to give you a little bit of background about Mike, he is a founder, director and entrepreneur. He’s a mentor, speaker, author and business growth advisor helping business owners to consider, start-up, develop and grow their own businesses and achieve success by their own definition.
I love this about Mike that it’s not all about him, it’s about his clients, and him and I share his vision of being client focused in exactly the same way. Mike, having started in the start-up market and worked in the start-up market for nearly twenty years, he has been studying the market, the types of business and the different types of business owners and he truly understands what contributes to success and how so many fail despite their hard work.
His specialism in fact is demonstrated working with professional service providers such as bookkeepers, accountants, lawyers, leisure and hospitality businesses and the not for profit charity sector. I’ve known Mike a lot of years and I highly respect him and lots of people respect him as a mentor and truly motivational character who will inspire you into action. He is committed to making it work for you. So welcome Mike I’m absolutely delighted to have you on the show today. So, before we get into the meat of things just give us a brief synopsis of who you’ve worked for, just so people can get a better understanding of your expertise and have context of who you are.
Mike: Well thank you Dylis thank you for that introduction very kind.
Dylis: You’re very welcome.
Mike: Made me blush in here right now. So, my background…left school to join Barclays; made my way to be the area manager for Barclays start-ups in Oxfordshire, fantastic role. Business start-ups got into my D.N.A. if you like. That’s where we met at Barclays and you know how passionate I was about that role. I was then asked to go and join the leisure industry and start-up a leisure company in South Oxfordshire called South Oxfordshire Leisure or what’s known as then SOL.
I ended up running Didcot Leisure Centre facilities as their contract manager and then I had this burning desire to really run my own businesses and when that journey of running my own businesses started I had a number of businesses; I had my own bookkeeping company and marketing company, health and safety training business, eventually had an indoor soft play centre so a little bit of diversity there.
Back in 2013 I sold my bookkeeping practice and then looked into membership organisations. Went to work for membership organisation in London and eventually started my own…co-founded my own bookkeeper’s organisation to help them start, develop and grow their own bookkeeper practice called the Book Keepers Alliance and you kindly spoke at one of our conferences you may remember.
Dylis: I do
Mike: September last year I was approached by the managing director of Chapman, Robinson and Moore and since December I’ve been a full-time employee of Chapman, Robinson and Moore Accountants in Kiddlington as their commercial director helping them embrace a little bit change but also prepare for the future and help the continued growth of their accountancy practice.
Dylis: It’s a real benefit to them having you there because I know your passion, I know how committed you are to your clients and so on so, pat on the back to them for head hunting you into that position. I know that Chapman, Robinson and Moore which we’ll refer to as C.R.M. have really built their brand around the theme of helping clients make their numbers work and you and I know that this is the foundation really but is this not what all accountants do so why…first of all why have they chosen that theme to differentiate their brand and why is it so important to know your numbers?
Mike: Yes it’s a good question and I think yes to a degree accountants do base their business around the numbers because that’s their expertise, that’s in effect what they should be mentoring their clients about. What we found when we were looking at our brand and I’ve been supporting C.R.M. from my marketing company for a number of years…so it’s like a historic relationship.
What we’ve established is that we wanted to make sure that our clients not only understood the numbers in their accounts i.e. what’s does turnover mean, what does cost of sales mean, what do all these expenses mean, what does the balance sheet mean but also fundamentally what makes up those numbers so in effect what we call the real numbers in business.
So, what are the real numbers that for example make up the turnover in business. What are the real numbers that impact on the cost of sales or a certain expense within the business impacting on the net profit?
So, I think all accountants will support their clients around the numbers but predominantly from a compliance perspective to help them complete their accounts and their tax return requirements. However, I don’t think all accountants help them to truly understand the numbers in their accounts and when I was running the Book-Keepers Alliance and supporting bookkeepers and small accountancy practices I was able to see a number of models across the U.K., able to get quite a close relationship with some of the software companies to understand other models and I felt that we wanted to embrace this numbers aspect, our expertise of how we help our clients make the numbers work.
I think the accountants do embrace supporting their clients from a numbers perspective we want to help them plan, look forward and understand the real numbers in their business that truly impact on their performance.
Dylis: There are so many businesses who don’t even think about this. It’s one of those areas of unconscious incompetence in a way because people don’t know what they don’t know. So, what are the ramifications of not fully understanding these numbers?
Mike: I think traditional accountancy support has predominately looked at the historic numbers in accounts and what’s in effect happened in the past and yes, some accountants I suppose like us will help clients understand those accounts but often it’s far too late for them to be able to make decisions. So, you know, the traditional picture you may see; someone gets to their year-end, takes a while to get the accounts to their accountant, by the time the accounts are completed it might be five to nine months before they’ve got the accounts and the information is out to date to make that decision.
We want to be up to date with our clients we want to have live information so that we’re helping our clients’ work I suppose with timely decisions to help change the performance of their business.
Dylis: Often they just keep doing what they’ve always done.
Dylis: And don’t stop and really look at these numbers and the impact of them and I know we’re going to dig deeper into this.
Mike: Yeah, I agree with what your saying, I think you know I love the of being an entrepreneur myself. I love the gut feel that we have as entrepreneurs and quite often it’s accurate but I like to have some factual behind that as well. So, you know having some performance, comparing it against your industry, understanding what things can be done differently, are all things that I advocate to businesses to look at and continue how they can make the numbers work in their business.
Dylis: Yeah brilliant so talking about numbers, what specifically, what specific numbers do you help your clients with?
Mike: I suppose to a degree their personalised on a client by client basis just depending on perhaps the industry they’re in or what the focus of that business may be. We, like I say, work with our clients to truly understand the real numbers that impact the success of their business particularly the turnover and their bottom line profit. So, we will work with the business in a simple model in terms of sales say okay why is it the number of customers times by the number of times they buy times by the average sale value; but also, we look at some of the factors that are impacting on their profitability.
So, one that I was looking at only this morning with a client was their productivity ratio so what’s their staff cost compared to that turnover. It was a number they’d not looked at before and when we compared it a benchmark to others in their industry they were slightly behind their industry. So, it made them think about okay can we make some savings and bring some better performance to our bottom line?
Dylis: Yeah and it’s all about these marginal gains, isn’t it?
Mike: Yeah, I think from our perspective we do like to sort of look at the business, look at the number of factors and then combine those factors for the cumulative effect. So, you know if we can improve the turnover a little bit, we can improve the cost of sales a little bit, we can reduce the expenses a little bit more; the cumulative effect of all those together is greater than the individual on their own.
Mike: Again, we look at those and say okay if we’ve got five or six factors what are the marginal gains philosophy and saying okay how can we improve those sales just a little bit, how can we change the cost of sales just a little bit and see the impact.
Mike: And it helps the mind-set I think for the business owners.
Dylis: Indeed, and I think I may have told this story before so for our listeners/ viewers who’ve heard this before I apologise but this is really relevant to what we’re talking about here. I maybe even shared this story with you when I heard Chris Hoy the Olympic cyclist on the stage, and he was fantastic, and he was talking about marginal gains and he said you know I wasn’t born an Olympic gold medallist, I was an eight year old boy who got a B.M.X. bike and then joined the cycling club.
He said the coach got us together he said we were just young lads and he asked us to write down our goals, what was our dream he said and I wrote down that I wanted to be a gold medallist in the Olympics. He said and all of my mates laughed but the coach didn’t and the coach said if that’s what you want then we’ll look at the steps because it’s always about the steps isn’t it, the steps to improvement.
So they worked on the steps and he said all of the time they were making marginal gains in each step which then gave them that overall huge gain because it was just marginal gains in each one of those and this is very relevant isn’t it to what we’re talking about because I know that you’ve got eight steps of business improvement and that’s what you focus on. So just talk to us about that.
Mike: Yeah and that’s something that really resonates for me because a phrase that I use quite often is making a step change and that step change as you know is you know how can we go from where we are now just to make one step forward if we can make a step forward and gain some momentum, create some good habits in the business then we’ll move in the right direction.
Our eight steps what we decided as a business is that a number of accountants have moved from the compliance side of the business to the advisory services but we wanted something that blended two something that our clients could come to us and get the support for the things they have to do; tax returns and annual accounts but also get the support from the advisory service to help them develop the businesses as they would want to see it that’s to say where the personalisation comes in.
It started back probably eight years ago now when we did some research for the group of accountants cross the U.K. to try and establish what the more successful businesses did every single year without fail. Once we got that research together we decided how could we adopt that into our program. The eight steps predominantly take you through well first of all the planning stages and it fundamentally holds the eight steps together. It’s the plan, what it is that you really want; this is what we were talking about at length fairly recently.
Mike: Plan what it is that you really want and why you really want it then you can establish to understand the real numbers that you want to measure and control. So, the second step is then once you’ve establish that is put the forecast together based on how you’re going to get to where you want to get to, because again I’m sure you’ve seen it we were talked about this at one of our exit planning seminars recently, a lot of businesses wait until they want to retire.
Mike: Then time to sell the business, if that’s their exit plan, then they want a million pounds for the business or whatever that number may be and then suddenly look surprise, surprise, it’s not worth that amount.
You’re working backwards and putting a forecast to get into that direction. Once you’ve got a forecast you’ve then got some management accounts that you can run off the back of that to measure those specific, what we call key predictive indicators. Now they are quite commonly referred to key performance indicators but again key performance tends to be looking backwards which is why we use the word predictive to predict what we need to measure looking forward to change the performance of the business.
Mike: Then that obviously if you’re doing monthly management accounts the next step is then how that feeds into the compliance step of actually having your accounts completed at year end. Then we go through steps such as evaluation where we are evaluating like for like periods year on year. We’re looking at benchmarking against similar businesses in the industry and we’re evaluating performance.
One of the other things we try to understand in terms of the true numbers in the business isn’t just, has your turnover gone up and that’s a tick in the box maybe but have you retained your margins you wanted to.
Mike: Have you attained in that growth, have you retained your debtor days so you’re collecting your cash just as quickly when you didn’t have so much business for example. So again the good habits are maintained as the business grows and there may be a reason why someone’s lost their gross margin for example because they’ve perhaps gone on a sales push to drive turnover.
Then the last couple of steps around valuation, understanding the valuation; now this isn’t necessarily always about a valuation to sell the business this is more about valuing consistently year on year and understanding how your past performance has impacted on that valuation. So is it some non-financial performance indicators i.e am I now are less reliant in working in the business or it might be a financial performance, I have more turnover does that impact on the valuation.
The last two steps are really around improvement. What improvements can be made so we do a lot of “what if” scenarios. What if you lost your best customer, what if you gained another one of those customers, what if your main member of staff left, what if you needed to recruit five more staff, what if scenarios. Then once we can establish those we then reset and we look at the improvement potential within the business and say what’s the improvement plan we need to put into the business.
Dylis: Yeah and often people think that business growth is just about bringing in more business but it’s much deeper than that.
Mike: Yeah yeah.
Dylis: These are the elements that you’ve just covered there, looking at those in a deeper way to really analyse what’s happening and where you can make those marginal gains and keep moving forward all of the time.
Mike: I like that phrase you just said because that’s my M.D.’s favourite saying is that as a business you’re never stagnating your either moving forwards or your moving backwards and you choose which direction you want to go.
Mike: We’ve probably moved away from the word growth. It’s probably an overused phrase and it’s probably a phrase that some businesses have sort have ducked away from because a lot business don’t say they want to grow in terms of grow their turnover. They do want to develop their business, they want to make it more efficient and more effective towards achieving their goals.
Dylis: And to leverage.
Dylis: Yeah yeah exactly and I noticed that one of the steps is around benchmarking. So why is that an important part of your focus with your clients?
Mike: Again I think it comes back to the point I was saying earlier in terms of I think a lot of business owners have a great gut feeling for their business but what’s the fact behind that. So for example if I said to a business, did you have a good year last year and they’d say yeah we had a great year or no we had a bad year well on what basis.
I think where this resonates to me as I was talking to a guy in a construction trade a couple of years ago when they were going through a recession and said to him how was your year, “shocking absolutely shocking” he says I’ve had a really bad year I said okay on what basis? He said well obviously not so many orders etc etc. So I said okay how does that compare against your industry; he didn’t really know.
So we did a bit of a comparison in the industry benchmark for him and actually it was way above his industry peers. After that reflection, okay yeah you might have had a bad year but you’re beating yourself up perhaps more than you need to because you had a better year than others. Again you could swing that the other way and say I’ve had a great year you’ve only had a great year perhaps because your industry had a great year, for example.
So I think it’s a sort of levelling if you like and what we tend to find when we do the benchmarking is for example a case that I can give you…I was talking to somebody last week and we benchmarked them and we do a traffic light system how you compare against different areas, about twenty different areas and he was green all the way apart from just the one and I said fantastic news but there’s one area we should still focused on, there’s still a learn from this exercise and again that’s the one he’s now building into his plan for his improvement plan about how he can change that one thing in the business and be green right across the board.
Dylis: All the way through yes yes marginal gains once again.
Mike: Incremental changes marginal gains yeah.
Dylis: Yeah brilliant I just think that the support that you give is…it is outstanding but it is differentiated from your competitors, there is no question about that. I know that there are some accountants who work in a similar way but I haven’t actually come across any who’ve got these eight specific steps that you can work with. So in terms of giving that support, how does that pan out practically? What is it you offer or how does it work if you’re working with me for example?
Mike: Yeah, I think we in terms practicality we look to make the numbers work for our business at every single touch point for our clients and that’s really where it started as a program but it actually evolved to be our brand, so at every touch point with our client we’re looking at how we can help them make their numbers work, develop their numbers etc.
Now although there’s eight steps you may choose to say that actually I only need the support in four, five, seven steps for example and that works and that’s how we would apply that and it really depends in terms of how much support you want. Obviously, it all comes together within the eight steps and it works as a cycle so once you’ve done the improvement plan you go back to revisit your goals and then you in effect sort of start to measure those through again.
I think it’s really about proactively working with our clients to establish what it is they really want to achieve, which of those eight steps are going to help them do that and predominately coming back to our point about making a step change to create some good habits within their business and its predominantly making that step change to create habits and it’s a phrase again well used but I do like it if you always do what you’ve always done you’ll always get what you’ve always got.
Dylis: Got, yes.
Mike: And we’re trying to just break that habit for a lot of our clients to sort of just take a step back and say okay what could I do slightly differently that could improve the performance of the business and implement some good behaviours and habits within the business.
Dylis: What comes through strongly Mike right from the beginning of us talking together today is this focus on what your clients want. It’s not about them fitting your process it’s about your process fitting them, their business and what they want and you know looking for example at the valuation but what is it that they want from the business at the end, what do they want their business to do for them.
We’ve touched on this earlier but you really do encourage your clients to reflect on their valuation early on, as opposed to waiting to that day when they think right we’re going to sell the business this was our pension and they find out that in fact it’s not as valuable as they thought it was going to be.
Mike: Yeah yeah.
Dylis: So why do you encourage businesses but I mean I’ve kind of answered it then but just kind flash that out a bit more for us.
Mike: Yeah, I think for many the exit or the sale of the business is their retirement plan although that key part of their personal plan and it is about looking forward and you kindly said in the introduction you know one of my focus is certainly how we embrace this at C.R.M. its success can only be defined by the business owner themselves.
So you know I could put a valuation all someone’s business, what they should need for their retirement etc. but I don’t know what their lifestyles going to be moving forward so success for them whether it’s that as a marker or it’s another measurement within, we allow our business owners to define that for us and we help them achieve that.
So, from my exit planning perspective it’s about saying okay well when do you want to retire, how do you want to retire and what are you going to do in retirement? So, you know, when for example yeah, the obvious one is stay on to retirement age but there’s people that want to go earlier, there’s a lot of people actually want to stay in the business and keep…I think people find it a little bit more difficult to sell the business for the valuation they want but actually find that it’s probably more profitable to stay in and earn out as like a pension whilst they’re still working in it perhaps on a part time basis.
Mike: How much in terms of what they’re going to need in terms of to exit from and then what they’re going to do afterwards. So what they’re going to do afterwards again do I just want to sell my business or hand the business over, do I want to stay involved, my experience is quite a lot businesses once they’ve lost control, they want out to go do some…but what are you going to go and do and have you got the fund from that sale to do so. Then once they understand that fund that we’re aiming for, where do you want to get to and where are we now.
Mike: And what steps do we need to do to get there and sometimes that can be quite a reality check for the businesses in terms of whether they’ve over valued the business or sometimes even under valued the business.
Dylis: Of course, buyers are always interested in risk. You know, of course the valuation the pound valuation is important but it’s like what risk am I taking here? So, the more robust the business is within those steps you covered it reduces the risk for buyers.
Mike: I think that’s the other factor in terms of…one of the exercises we do around if someone’s looking to exit is getting them to understand who their likely buys are likely to be and then understanding the motivations for those buyers. So is it risk, is it cash return and then when you’re building the business towards that valuation you’re thinking about those factors as well.
So am I might in effect making it very lean to generate cash or am I just reducing the risk by bringing in a number of managers rather just relying on one manager for example…
Dylis: Yeah yeah.
Mike: If it was the structure of the business that was at risk.
Dylis: What I really love about you Mike and I love a lot of things as you know.
Mike: Thank you.
Dylis: Professionally of course, professionally, is your background in banking has really given you that edge over a lot of people who are doing the same work as you because you’ve got that financial background, you’ve got qualifications in that area that you can bring into this role with Chapman Robinson and Moore. I have to say that just to remind people this isn’t a C.R.M system.
Mike: Do you get confused with that sometimes.
Dylis: Exactly, so you know again offering a really great service but I’m going to go back to the steps that we talked about. So is there one step in there that you feel is the most important or more important than the others, if so what would that be?
Mike: Yeah, I think the most important step has to be that planning stage for the businesses who are in the program for the first year because it fundamentally sets the rest of the program up because again it’s planning…you know planning what they really want, in terms of some personal goals and business goals and I’m sure you work with more businesses than I do in terms of that area but how many businesses misalign their business and personal goals.
Say for example they think they know what they want for their personal goals oh yeah, I want to move to a bigger house or fund the children going to university but they’re misaligned. Actually, my only income is the business so the business has got to have some goals to generate cash for example.
Mike: So, we work with that alignment of business and personal goals where relevant. We also work with our businesses to make sure the stakeholders are aligned. So, for example if there’s two partners in the business and their working towards an exit are they working towards a common exit or even if they you know had a discussion probably a month ago now whereby one business wanted to grow…one business owner wanted to grow the partner in the business was quite happy where the business was and didn’t want any more risk as you quite rightly said.
So, a lot of planning is really about alignment, clarity, having clarity about what they’re striving to achieve. Then from that perspective I think then the next stage is then where we work in terms of using our expertise and passion around the numbers which not everybody’s got that expert…passion if….
Dylis: Yes yes.
Mike: It’s to help them then build that into a forecast and actually say okay not just in terms of what’s your profit forecasts going to be but how’s that going to impact in terms of your balance sheet and your cash flow. So again, I think most businesses tend to understand the phrases that you would see in a profit and loss forecast but when you talk about some of the balance sheet items, there’s probably less of an understanding of debtors, creditors, liabilities and capital accounts etc. and the cash flow is something probably that comes on a little bit of a whim if you like in terms of am I going to be lucky in terms of what the forecast produces from a resulting cash if you like. So again, the second sort of underpinning part to that important planning stage is identifying what the real numbers are that you need to focus on that we can then build into the forecast and like I said that’s not just the resulting important number of sales but what’s fundamentally making up your sales.
So, for example a restaurant which again is one of our expertise here we’re talking to a restaurant okay well what is it, is it the number of covers that you sell, is it the average price, is it the number of bookings on a weekly basis you’re achieving that’s impacting your success rate etc. so we can measure not just those financial numbers are going to the accounts but those underlying numbers that drive that.
Dylis: Yeah. and businesses need someone like you in fact to be able to prompt their thinking and ask the relevant questions because they…you know we know that entrepreneurs and smaller businesses will just keep on being busy every day and right down to…for example discounts.
This is a hobby horse of mine where people will give discounts and say well I’ve given ten percent discount on and let’s say a ten-thousand-pound product or service but when you look at the margin the margin is much less so in real terms they’re giving a much bigger discount and they’re not realising the impact of that and so they need someone like you to be able to challenge their thinking.
Again, that would make a huge marginal gain and it’s about the understanding and the mind-set when they’re, you know selling to someone and being prepared to give a discount and then thinking about, well having spoken to Mike I understand the real impact here.
Mike: You’re right and someone asked me the other day or challenged me the other day so you don’t really understand our type of business do you and I said well admittedly yeah, I don’t understand what you make and what you sell as we stand here but once I get to know the business I’ll have an understanding of that but actually I don’t need to tell you how to do that because you know how to do that.
My role can help you in effect play a little bit devil’s advocate and challenge you or challenge you with some questions you may not ask yourselves or coming from a supported aspect and share with you what I have experience with helping clients like yourself not perhaps in the same industry.
Mike: But like you say the discounts one is very common in terms of it can happen in X business it can happen in Y but the impact tends to be fairly similar.
Dylis: Yeah and the other area where I see businesses fall down is that, and it relates back to what you talked about in the planning phase of not just looking at the planning for your business but looking at the planning personally and it’s the business that funds the personal. So, it’s really important if they saying I want a bigger house or a need school fees or its you know I need university fees this much per year or whatever and then looking into the business and saying so how much does the business need to generate.
It’s not just turnover you have to take into account margin again and say right so if I need this much I need to have a gross amount but then looking at a margin that actually they can draw from to help them fund all of those personal things.
This can be missed and they forget and then once they’ve got that figure they forget to chunk it down and break it down into monthly, weekly, daily. I always say to my clients you can’t eat an elephant in one go but you can in bite sized chunks.
Mike: Yeah and one of the lovely things I remember about working with yourself was that it was taking that big goal and saying okay that’s your five-year goal and let’s bring it down to twelve, let’s bring it down to six months, bring it down to ninety days, what we’re going to do next week and things like that.
Dylis: Yeah yeah.
Mike: At the end it’s a little bit like what we do with the numbers you know in terms of saying what is that big goal number that you want to achieve?
Mike: What needs to be done in the short term to kick-start that activity.
Dylis: Yeah exactly.
Mike: You know it’s a very common one I’ve found with business owners to say actually I want a bottom line additional profit of ten percent of the ten thousand pounds for example and based on my numbers I’ve done in the past, that means to get an extra ten thousand pounds at the bottom I’ve got to put another hundred thousand pounds on top so they go banging at ways to get more sales and get another hundred thousand.
Mike: But actually, if you look at the fundamental bits in between about what’s driving up online profit whether it’s productivity, whether it’s overhead costs that haven’t been reviewed for the last five years etc. actually it might only take fifty thousand to get an extra ten at the bottom if you make some improvements in other areas. So again, going back to the marginal gains comment you made.
Dylis: Exactly so how do you consider the improvement plan, what goes into that?
Mike: I think the considerations really are around the improvement of all the factors we’ve discussed I think, predominantly under aligning plan , vision and the goals but there’s an element of the performance, there’s an element of the economic and industry factors that are impacting on the business.
I think the collective information that we then get from the sensitivity analysis that we do; “so the what if” questions that helps our clients to consider and reflect on those questions to say okay a well if I do, do that what are my options. Then that goes back to a word you mentioned earlier how much risk do I want to take to achieve that and look at those options.
I think quite a bit works around that sensitivity analysis because that’s when we do get a little bit challenging, that’s where we’ve probably understood the business and we can look at it from our expertise of numbers and also their expertise and actually understanding okay well that’s your best case scenario how much do you really want it, that’s your worst case scenario how much do you really want to avoid it and whereabouts in the middle do you want to be.
Dylis: Yeah, fantastic and really great insights that you’ve shared with us today Mike, so if anyone wants to get in touch with you to really take a deeper dive into their business how would they contact you?
Mike: Okay so our website which has just been redesigned….
Dylis: I’ll have a look.
Mike: Its www.crmoxford.co.uk or our telephone number is 01865 – 379272.
Dylis: Excellent can you just repeat that number again there Mike.
Mike: Yes its Oxford so that’s 01865 379272.
Dylis: Brilliant thank you so much Mike it’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you and I hope it’s given our viewers and listeners some insights into just stepping back for a moment and taking time to talk to you and analyse their business and see where they can make those marginal gains without having to work that much harder really.
Mike: Yeah well thank you Dylis thank you for the opportunity to join you and share some thoughts as always.
Dylis: Thank you very much Mike it’s been a pleasure bye.
Mike: Thanks Dylis bye now.
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